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okay

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can i just go can i just ask about one

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other photo because i want to i want the

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same question is this a photo that billy

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meyer took and claims is real and that

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is the laser gun

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photo yes

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yes

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and what do you say about the person

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that found almost the exact

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laser gun toy made around the time the

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photograph was taken

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you'd think so do you where did you get

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that from because i'm going to tell you

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that that isn't true

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and i'm going to tell you hold on i'm

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going to find it here for you

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i think we might have a little something

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where that can be found yes i have a

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site that i can definitely source i

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don't have it in front of me so i

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apologize

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listen i appreciate you going through i

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only have a few just those few photos

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that i really had specific questions i'd

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like to ask you about the wedding cake

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thing too because that one i think is

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ridiculous

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we'll go back to that but let's do this

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and this is a little long but you asked

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for it and these people are saying it's

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a lie and all that so bear with me and

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uh this is from wendell stevens his

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books whatever you think of him he's a

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child molester you're going to say the

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child molester as a source hold on

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this is a man who along with two other

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michael if the best source you have is a

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child molester to defend your position

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no i'll let you use them i just want to

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be clear in that you're citing a child

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molester as a source

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hey if you knew the truth about

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everybody

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did you i i hope you never voted for

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bill clinton would you agree with me

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that a child molester cannot be trusted

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can you say can we agree on that let's

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get some common ground here

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you're citing a child molester as a

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source for proof i don't trust job

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molesters stephen i'm an investigator

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and i'm a research scientist and pardon

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me if you want to run [\h__\h] arguments

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at me i'm just telling you what i feel

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if you want to go ahead with your

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argument using a child molester as a

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source you can go ahead and do that i'm

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just telling you what i feel you can go

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ahead with your argument then

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we're talking about a laser gun now

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right

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then talk about the laser clinton let's

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talk about it but i'm just saying you

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you know following please

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just hold that stuff

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because it's it's really unprofessional

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okay michael i will i will i will agree

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that i will not i won't go into that

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territory anymore you can talk about him

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any and use him as a source whatever you

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want to do i'm i just want to be clear

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in how i feel about him and and and

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people citing him as a source we're good

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let's go take a breath let's both take a

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breath and step back remember that we're

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trying to find common ground and i'm i'm

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only asking you questions professional

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okay

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do not leave children with him i don't

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know if the guy down the street doing

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people's taxes or the guy in the fixing

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cars as a child moisture and there's

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plenty of them that get out and they're

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people in all walks of life did the guy

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fix the damn car did he do the taxes now

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that doesn't mean i want to go to him

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now listen to what was said in this

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investigation by an investigator when i

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first saw these molesting investigator

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yes

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are you going to keep doing that no okay

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no i'm not afraid of what you know

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something about real life is messy

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stephen

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real life is messy but we choose we

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choose what sources to trust we choose

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we both have the we both have the right

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to choose which sources we trust that's

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awesome why don't you listen to the

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evidence

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really sincere and you go back and you

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tell me you know what what joe tisc that

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guy said is true

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i will i will admit this to you michael

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i will admit this to you every time

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somebody cites him as a source i turn

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off i'm sorry i apologize

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it's just that's just the way i feel

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about it and and so i have not exposed

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myself to a lot of what he has found i

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will admit that freely because because

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of this situation so

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i apologize and like i said let's both

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take a step back and take a breath we're

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trying to find common ground i'm just

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asking questions let's get into the

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laser gun photo then here it is when i

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first saw these laser pistol photos i

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had serious misgivings about them and

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the whole story of the so-called ancient

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weapon but then edward meyer took me to

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a place in the frat nature preserve near

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hinville where he had tested the first

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one he showed me a seared line of

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vegetation that went in a true straight

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line until it struck an embankment and

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stopped he showed me another and then a

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limb high above our heads on a tall tree

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over 60 feet tall that was severed

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cleanly at a place about 45 feet above

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the ground and 20 feet out from the

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trunk where the branch was about one

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inch in diameter the severed part of the

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branch was still lying on the ground

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where it had fallen and i picked it up

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and examined it it was severed cleanly

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without any fraying but the most

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noticeable thing about it was the thin

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layer of seared wood at the break the

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charring was no more than one inch to

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one and a quarter inches deep into the

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wood all the way through the branch and

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the searing of the bark was likewise

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very narrow at the break and so sudden

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and quick that the sap in the bark did

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not bubble out and run certainly no no i

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i take it back i have definitely heard

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this whole explanation

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several times

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i i have heard that have you seen the

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hole in the tree yes but what i've

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wondered is what i've wondered is

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yes i've seen a picture i believe

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i believe i've seen a photograph of it

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and my question about that is couldn't

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somebody have done that with a drill and

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a plumbing torch

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i'll jump down

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then there's the problem of the hole in

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the tree the tree was a good ten inches

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to twelve inches in diameter and the

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tree was green and full of stuff i got a

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16 inch drill i mean how would a man

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with one arm bore such a hole

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an auger bit would have been impossible

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because it would surely bind in a hole

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that long in a living tree how would

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meyer hold it so it was it was and then

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and then the other question about the

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laser gun so they gave him a laser gun

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and now god damn it listen to this stuff

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and stop giving me bs michael like i

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said let's take a breath

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something i'm just trying to i'm just

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the other questions

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where would he get an auger bit 12

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inches long by one inch in diameter a

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non-standard size that would have to be

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a special order and made up by a tool

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maker

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this would leave tracks that could be

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traced later and the hole in the tree

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had to be made in 20 minutes or less and

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all equipment removed and hidden never

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to be discovered again

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oh but there's more yes but he can't

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produce the laser gun why can't he

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produce the laser gun so we can examine

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it check out its technology maybe learn

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from it people don't jump through hoops

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just because brain dead human beings on

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earth decide brain daddy said he had a

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laser gun i'd like to take a look at the

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laser gun but there's a convenient

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explanation for why he can't let me look

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at the laser gun because you're a nobody

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in the overall scheme i'm a nobody i'm

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okay but so am i

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so we've been given you're saying you

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got listen this is like five-year-olds

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on a playground if five-year-olds on a

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playground if one five-year-old came up

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to a group of five-year-olds on a

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playground and said i got a laser gun

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we don't want to see it why can't we see

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the laser gun he said he had a laser gun

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michael horn come on and you are using

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five-year-olds on a playground thinking

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that's the best analogy i could think of

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it's the best analogy i could think of

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and just like five-year-olds in a

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playground if that kid went i do got a

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laser gun but you can't see it

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all the all the five-year-olds would

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think he was lying so it's it's a it's a

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good analogy

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um

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it isn't a good analogy because you are

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still doing the same thing

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that everybody else does that wants that

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they won't you you might go i grew up

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with this story i wish it was true i

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wish it was true i grew up with the

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story i wanted to be true i wish that

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your way out of a paper bag here listen

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watch this then the hole in the tree

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which a man could insert his thumb into

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was not completely round inside but

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somewhat

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oval in some places like the hole made

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by pouring hot water into a snow bank

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and the charring through light and

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penetrating into the wood no more than

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one quarter inch or less was uniform

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throughout including the front entrance

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and the rear exit from the trunk and the

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dark soil behind the tree in line of

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sight through the hole was still smoking

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and fused i'm not taking anybody else's

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word for this because i was there a

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short time later and personally examined

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it all for myself now you don't like it

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it's not good enough because well you

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want the toy gun to appear they found

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out that when they went looking for the

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toy gun it didn't exist it didn't exist

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it didn't exist in sporting goods stores

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it didn't exist in toy stores it didn't

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exist in anywhere that they could find

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it and to this day nobody's produced so

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what's actually happening somebody's

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found that i saw i saw a side-by-side

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comparison was that inaccurate was that

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inaccurate you produced the side by side

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because i've seen every so-called side

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by side and they explain

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how this works that it isn't the same

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and they said

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you know

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one guy insisted the gun here is from

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here was a plastic toy weapon and it

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could be proved that the color of the

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muzzle of the weapon was the same color

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as the freshly painted red fence in

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meyer's yard also seen in the pictures

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okay

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one more question and i mean this

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sincerely so aliens give them the laser

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gun and he just takes it like in his

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backyard on a farm and and shoots a tree

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like what i don't i don't understand the

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logic

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and because you've got a construct in

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your mind that things have to happen a

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certain way just like seti does they

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think somebody's going to babble to them

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in mathematics and that's going to be

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contact while billy meyer for 77 years

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is talking to real people and they're

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doing it in german so he can understand

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it and transcribe it but you but why

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would super intelligent aliens just lend

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billy meyer a laser gun then

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i mean why would they do that why would

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they

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lend him a laser gun well it looks to me

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like it provoked some controversy don't

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you think let me finish this thing about

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the toy weapon

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because it was not seen to be true in

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the same photos of the fence was painted

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with a glossy blood red enamel whereas

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the muzzle of the weapon was a flat rosy

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red color and they had

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and nor did this guy know that we had

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been to every toy supplier in

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switzerland and failed to find any toy

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weapon anything like the laser pistol

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meyer photograph a search of sporting

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goods stores was equally fruitless to

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this day we've never found a match for

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that in other words whatever you think

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of the investigators or anything else

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they did an investigation and they did a

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very i mean all the people that

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participated there were many more people

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than wendell stephens and the two of

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them lee and riddells were skeptics when

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they went over there but

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yeah and that that leads me to one other

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question about that documentary is a lot

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of people

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including you i believe have cited jim

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delatoso's image analysis and i have a

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huge problem with that because

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he

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just

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first of all like the the 1970s

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early 80s technology that he used to do

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that analysis and second of all you know

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he's been largely discredited with his

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analysis of the phoenix lights being

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completely and totally not science

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and so

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you know that's one of those things that

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always makes me

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something wrong every time or is he

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right every time how about neither well

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but here's here's here's my concern

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you've got you

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you like to cite like this is proof and

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you've got

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jim del tozo who

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your most

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professional image analyst would say

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he's

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you know it's junk science what he does

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it's not real science so that's you're

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saying that

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you have photographic proof that's

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that's the guy doing it and it's he's

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been largely discredited

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and then you're saying the laser gun's

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real i have a child molester that saw it

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there you go again it's very

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disingenuous thing to do you don't know

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that the people that you rely on maybe

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people in your own family are goddamn

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child molesters how would you know until

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they're outed maybe they've been living

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these wonderful saints

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i think you're missing the point my

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point is that you're citing these people

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as proof of your claims and once been

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largely discredited and the other one

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i'm not gonna say it again

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stephen if you're gonna do this no i

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just wanna move on

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i'm gonna give it plain and straight

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from the

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beginning an analysis using standard

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protocols for determining evidence shows

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the meyer case is authentic that's the

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first thing you've yet to acknowledge

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that because you're not willing to go

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means motive and opportunity let me look

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at that i didn't see that article even

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though it's been on your website for two

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and a half years michael and uh i don't

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know i mean you're gonna i've been a

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little behind on the billy myer case

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well then you don't have what i will say

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is this what i will say is that you know

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i i'm trying to do my due diligence i'm

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trying to understand what to me has been

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a mystery since i was a child

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i loved i do i like this i love the

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story michael but forget the story where

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i'm at is where i'm at is still stephen

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do you understand

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this or not

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yeah i'm having a conversation with you

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here where you go into your feelings

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every two minutes then you wanted to you

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know

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it's possible he wasn't it's possible

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that what i was told by lee and brit

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elders and other people was he was told

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to shut the hell up or he was going to

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jail and they were going to put him

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there and that's what happened now i

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don't know that it's true and i don't

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know that he was a child moisture i have

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absolutely no truck no patience with

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child molesters i think they are the

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worst people in the world but i heard p

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and i knew wendell for 20 years pardon

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me with your you know your second and

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third hand information and if you're

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going to be in an international

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publication it's public records it's not

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second and third-hand information

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publicly

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first-hand court documents that i got

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here on him you know

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everything's true right you read it on

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that's the news that's the that's the

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00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:32,320
news so it's obviously true right i mean

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i know that you know that it's true

411
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because okay well let's just say this

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anybody can read the court transcripts

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their public records and make their own

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determination of the of of the veracity